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Words of Radiance Reread: Chapter 3

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Words of Radiance Reread: Chapter 3

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Words of Radiance Reread: Chapter 3

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Published on July 3, 2014

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Brandon Sanderson Words of Radiance Stormlight Archive

Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! We’re so glad you could join us as, having greeted our grumpy and non-healing friend Kaladin last week, we now return to Shallan on her journey toward the Shattered Plains.

This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere books that become relevant. (But I don’t think there are any today.) Previous entries in the reread can be found here.

Words of Radiance Chapter 3 arch Pattern

Chapter 3: Pattern

Point of View: Shallan
Setting: Aboard the Wind’s Pleasure, in Longbrow’s Straits
Symbology: Shadesmar Icon, Shalash

 

IN WHICH we read a snatch of Jasnah’s first book; a Pattern is captured on paper, and a Cryptic enters the physical realm; Jasnah’s spren is glimpsed in a less terrifying form; Jasnah begins to explain the relationship between spren, Surgebinding, and the Radiant Orders; her atheism clouds her understanding of the truth; and Shallan is given a new focus of scholarship, as the first person in centuries to interact with a Cryptic.

Quote of the Week:

“I suspect, personally, that these groupings of spren—emotion spren versus nature spren—are where the ideas of mankind’s primeval ‘gods’ came from. Honor, who became Vorinism’s Almighty, was created by men who wanted a representation of ideal human emotions as they saw in emotion spren. Cultivation, the god worshipped in the West, is a female deity that is an embodiment of nature and nature spren. The various Voidspren, with their unseen lord—whose name changes depending on which culture we’re speaking of—evoke an enemy or antagonist. The Stormfather, of course, is a strange offshoot of this, his theoretical nature changing depending on which era of Vorinism is doing the talking…”

We of the Cosmere-savvy readership can chuckle over Jasnah’s lack of understanding. If she knew what we know, or even what Hoid knows, she’d understand that Honor and Cultivation are real entities, and were once real people who held Shards of Adonalsium. To be fair, she later acknowledges the “slight possibility” that the Stormfather and the Almighty might be powerful spren like the Nightwatcher. As a self-proclaimed atheist, however, Jasnah considers anything that can’t be explained by science to be superstition or fabrication. She holds an underlying presumption that she understands the natural world, and that anything “supernatural”—anything that isn’t part of her definition of the natural world—is therefore not real. The problem is that her definitions of science, reality and nature are too small. Funny; I know some people like that, too.

 

Stormwatch:  No storms today, but for what it’s worth, this is two days after Chapter 1; during the intervening day, they made port in Amydlatn to prepare for the last leg of the voyage.

 

Commentary:  Right off the bat in this chapter, we see something that may have influenced Jasnah’s atheistic tendencies: the historical tampering done by the Vorin church in their attempts to control “truth” for the sake of their own power. It would put one off the Vorin religion to figure that out, wouldn’t it? It bugs me that the question was never answered: why was Jasnah so reluctant to give Shallan this book? I don’t see false modesty as part of her make-up. Did she think that in retrospect it was bad scholarship? That’s the only reason I can think of for her to be hesitant, but if that’s the case, it doesn’t seem likely that she’d carry it around with her. Whatever. It’s interesting, though, that her book may give us a hint at how the Recreance became a “betrayal of mankind” rather than mankind’s betrayal of the spren.

Once again, we get a lot more explanation of things than expected; by now, I can’t remember how much we’d known from the previous book, how much from Word of Brandon, and how much was new. In any case, we have the explanation of Surges and the way in which access overlaps to make each Surge available to two Orders and give each Order access to two Surges. Shallan now learns what we already knew (I think)—that she and Jasnah share the Surge of Soulcasting, but that their Orders are adjacent rather than the same.

I found Shallan’s discussion of spren, and what they were before they were “alive,” to be a fascinating subject, and I’m going to leave our discussion of it for the comments. Please dig into it and share your thoughts! (It starts near the bottom of page 70 in your hardcover.)

Also… this chapter is spren-heavy, so most of the commentary seems to go there today.

 

Sprenspotting:  Taking the lesser spren first, we meet our old friends the creationspren, only this time we meet them by the hundreds. Is this because Shallan is drawing so frantically, or so well, or… is it because of the subject of her drawing? And here’s a curiosity: if the theory is correct that a Windrunner’s Plate comes somehow from the windspren to whom the honorspren seem related, would a Lightweaver’s Plate come from creationspren?

We also catch another glimpse of Ivory, which is the most ironic name for a spren who looks like a “small figure made of inky blackness—shaped like a man in a smart, fashionable suit with a long coat” who then melts away into shadow. I’m sure the naming was done on purpose; I still wonder what the purpose is! Also, I’m extremely irritated that Jasnah drops such tantalizing hints and then stops because, “He does not like me to speak of him. It makes him anxious.” Grrr. If she had said just a few more sentences, we might have learned more of the Recreance!

Back to the subject of Shallan’s drawing: PATTERN, captured at last! Clever girl, using her peripheral vision to mark exactly where he is, and then looking straight at him and capturing a Memory of him. There’s a looming question, here: is her Memory-taking ability something all her own, or is it something she gets from the bond with Pattern? Because… well, I want to know if she used his own gifts against him, or what? If she did, she got some payback right off, because he chased her around the room, scared half out of her wits.

And then she realizes that he’s sort of clueless here and bumps into things as he begins to explore the Physical Realm again. The juxtaposition between Jasnah’s description of the Cryptics as “the lighteyes of the Cognitive Realm” and Pattern wandering around like a dizzy toddler exploring a new house was hilarious. Or disconcerting, if you’re Shallan and have just been told to sideline all your other studies and concentrate on this odd little critter.

Did anyone else notice just how similar her drawing of Pattern is, with its symmetries spiraling out from the center point, to her mapping of the Shattered Plains? I hadn’t noticed it until just now.

Also, Nightwatcher is mentioned again as a powerful spren. I wonder if she’ll bond someone someday. I waffle between the theory that all Bondsmiths are linked to the Stormfather, and the theory that some of them may link to Nightwatcher. I’ll bet she could form a bond if she wanted.

 

Ars Arcanum:  Another section that almost made QOTW was this:

“I’m not one of the Radiants,” Shallan said.

“Of course you aren’t,” Jasnah said, “and neither am I. The orders of knights were a construct, just as all society is a construct, used by men to define and explain. Not every man who wields a spear is a soldier, and not every woman who makes bread is a baker. And yet weapons, or baking, become the hallmarks of certain professions.”

“So you’re saying that what we can do…”

“Was once the definition of what initiated one into the Knights Radiant,” Jasnah said.

Sadly, this doesn’t give more than a slight hint at the origin of Surgebinding and how much was done prior to the founding of the Knights Radiant. It sounds again like it was pre-existent, but there’s no indication of whether any of the same limitations were present. Prior to the Radiants, was a Surgebinder able to access more than one Surge? Or more than two? Is the circle of overlapping tens an artificial construct, or a natural one? Or is there a difference, when you’re talking about living ideas?

 

Heraldic Symbolism:   Again with the Shadesmar icon, which is appropriate not only as Shallan’s icon but also as she draws Pattern from the Cognitive to the Physical Realm. (Double meanings FTW!) Shalash is also appropriate as the Herald associated with Shallan’s Order-to-be, and as Shallan spends so much time in drawing.

 

Well, that’s all I’ve got today, my friends. Everyone grab your beverage of choice, and let’s settle down in the Storm Cellar to talk it over!


Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and a Sanderson beta-reader. She has been a fantasy lover since the age of eight, when her third-grade teacher loaned her his copy of The Hobbit. (Thanks, Mr. Hamilton!) She’s also a full-time wife & mom with degrees in engineering, literature, and chemistry. Nice combination, eh?

About the Author

Alice Arneson

Author

Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and a Sanderson beta-reader. She has been a fantasy lover since the age of eight, when her third-grade teacher loaned her his copy of The Hobbit. (Thanks, Mr. Hamilton!) She’s also a full-time wife & mom with degrees in engineering, literature, and chemistry. Nice combination, eh?
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10 years ago

One thing that I thought was particularly interesting upon re-reading is just how much Shallan dislikes Pattern at first. On the first read, it seemed natural–the cryptics are a creepy sort, just hanging about unseen, and one is now in her life all the time, following her around.

Upon re-reading though, I can’t help but think that Shallan’s dislike of Cryptics is related to (or rather directly caused by) the trauma of using Pattern to kill her mother. She’s freaked out by Pattern because she knows, deep down, what he made her capable of doing.

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10 years ago

I usually like Jasnah, but here I wanted to strangle her (from behind and unseen so she couldn’t soulcast me before I got to her). So frustrating in her assumptions and insistence on the lack of truth behind Vorin beliefs.
Pattern seems so dumb here, whereas he was fairly sinister in his other form. I feel bad for him, because his prolonged idiocy (years!!!) is all Shallan’s fault, as we learn later. If only she would stop blocking out all her mermories…
Ivory is intriguing, and I hope we learn more of him soon…I would imagine that Jasnah’s spren would be quite the intellectual, either that or the complete opposite to complement her, but I’m leaning toward the former option.
The discussion of the Nightwatcher wasn’t illuminating, but it did make me wonder if Jasnah ever went to her. It doesn’t seem her style, but given her immense intellectual curiosity, and especially her spren-related curiosity after she first visited Shadesmar in the prologue, you would think she would at least attempt to learn firsthand more about the Nightwatcher…

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10 years ago

I could be wrong on this, but I believe this is also the last time we see the Shadesmar icon for Shallan – going forward, they use (various versions of) Pattern for her. Not sure if there’s anything specific there, but I noticed and thought it was interesting. Perhaps marking a shift from the vague interaction with the Cognitive Realm as a whole to a direct bond with a particular cryptic?

Jasnah’s atheism has always been slightly amusing to me. Not that it’s unrealistic at all for her character, just that we have direct information as readers that she doesn’t, and we know that in this world there really are gods. Makes things interesting.

Also, totally on-board with creationspren for Lightweavers being analogous to windspren for Windrunners. What is an illusion, after all, but the creation of a new truth? Just seems to fit, in my head.

ChocolateRob
10 years ago

Speaking of juxtaposition I was pretty amused by the description of the Edgedancers in the chapter 46 epigraph as ‘the most articulate and refined of the Radiants’ then in the next interlude we meet Lift.

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10 years ago


Oh, man, I didn’t catch that–that’s hilarious.

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10 years ago

ChocolateRob — the irony of the refined nature of the Edgedancers and Lift being an Edgedancer was noted by her spren.

Alice — To me it is obvious why Ivory is named Ivory: Brandon likes the song Ebony & Ivory :)

Do we ever find out if Lightwarders had Shallan’s talent of Memory or is that something unique to Shallan? I tend to think it is her own. I seem to recall there are some hints in her flashbbacks that Shallan’s Memory talent is not part of her bond with Pattern. However, that could be because I think that the talent is not part of her bond and therefore I interpret scenes to mean what I want them to mean.

I think, but I cannot remember, that after she draws Pattern into the Physical Realm (pun intended), she does not see/include Cryptics in any of her drawings that she drew from a taking of a Memory. Can anybody confirm or correct me?

Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)

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STBLST
10 years ago

Lift is not a full-fledged Edgedancer so that their description and Lift’s personality are not an ironic contrast. It may show, however, how far she is supposed to progress from being a 13 year old, totally uneducated, and smug girl to a mature Radiant. Rather, the focus should be on how a girl abandoned to the streets from a tender age and hunted by a ‘monster’ (Wyndle’s characterization of Nale) is able to not only survive, but to cultivate an empathy for the unfortunate – even to the point of putting herself in mortal peril in order to help. That character trait is, presumably, what caused her bonding to the Cultivation spren, Wyndle.

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10 years ago

AndrewHB @@@@@ 6 – According to the “in-book book” Words of Radiance, chapter 21, page 10 (epigraph to chapter 49 in our book),

“Lightweavers, by no coincidence, included many who pursued the arts; namely: writers, artists, musicians, painters, sculptors. Considering the order’s general temperament, the tales of their strange and varied mnemonic abilities may have been embellished.”

That implies to me that some (if not all) of the Lightweavers also had access to skills similar to Shallan’s taking of Memories.

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10 years ago

Sorry, double post.

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10 years ago

I personally was excited by the discussion of spren that takes place in this chapter and thought it hilarious that Jasnah reached the conclusions that she does, which happen to be exactly opposite from what is actually going on. Emotion-type and nature-type spren did not give rise to the idea of Honor and Cultivation, Honor and Cultivation created the emotion and nature spren. Of course she has no way of knowing that, and her biases don’t exactly lend themselves to imagining super powerful beings like Shards.

I agree with the idea of their being a connection between creationspren and Lightweavers in the same way there seems to be one between Windrunners and windspren (though I’m pretty much skeptical on every theory concerning the origin of Shardplate at this point so I don’t necessarily agree with the “they become shardplate” idea). Which makes it somewhat ironic (at least I think that it is irony) that Pattern doesn’t like creationspren. Later on in the book he describes them as “useless” that “most spren have a purpose but that [creationspren] are only drawn to someone else’s purpose”.

And Oh My Syl do I want to know more about Ivory. I hope that we find out more in book 3, (I really want a council meeting with all the current radiants and their spren) but I worry that we won’t learn much until we get Jasnah’s book in the back five…

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10 years ago

Fell asleep rereading this chapter last night. :-( Need to finish before commenting on Alice’s challenge.

In the meantime, something that has been nagging at me slightly…
Cryptics appeared in Shallan’s “visions” and drawings in WoK with bodies (and probably for Elhokar also). Yet Pattern appears from now on without a body. It seems that a Cryptic with a body is the cognitive realm manifestation, while the way Shallan sees Pattern from here on is the physical realm manifestation. Pretty straightforward, right? Nothing similar has happened with Kal and Syl–the other pair we know well. I wonder what form Syl takes in the cognitive realm (or any other spren, for that matter).

Further, Shallan can see Ivory and (IIRC, must finish rereading the chapter) Jasnah can see Pattern. Yet only Kal and our favorite Horneater can see Syl. This can’t mean surgebinders (soon-to-be or manifested already) can see each other’s spren, otherwise Lopen would also see Syl. There may be other evidence I’m not recalling, but I’m concluding that spren decide who can see them in the physical realm. That leaves Rock as the outlier. What’s special about him?

Just a few random ramblings.

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10 years ago

It was mentioned somewhere that some kinds of spren have trouble making themselves invisible, while others are invisible to most people.

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10 years ago

birgit @12
Maybe we’ll run across the “somewhere” in this reread. And Syl (again, IIRC) can turn it on and off with ease. Even so, there’s still something special about Rock.

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Shaizam
10 years ago

In regards to Jasnah’s reluctance to give away the book:
Sanderson said he had talked extensively with atheists to make Jasnah’s lack of religion believable. Most atheists (despite the stereotype) are reluctant to proselytize unless invited. This would be especially true for Jasnah to Shallan, because she had just offended her beliefs without thinking about it while off on a tangent. She doesn’t want to cause any more of a rift with her ward, so she is reluctant to give a Vorinism-bashing book to Shallan so soon afterwards.

I think that everyone reading the series can agree that Jasnah is silly to be an atheist. If there were intangible spren flying around, magic systems easily accessible to some humans, beings on our world with (we assume) no genetic relationship to us, and clear prophetic predictions of current events, then I daresay I would be a theist too.

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10 years ago

– Where did you hear that book 5 would be Jasnah’s? The last I had heard, Book 3 was Szeth, Book 4 was Eshonai, and Book 5 was Dalinar. This is the first I’ve heard of Jasnah having a book in the first set of 5.

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10 years ago

@14 – I don’t know if Jasnah is silly for being an atheist. If you grew up in a world filled with spren, wouldn’t their existence be similar to the existence of animals in our world? We just accept them as a normal part of the world. As for magic, Jasnah has only known about its reality in the past few years and I assume she has been an atheist longer. And magic does not neccessarily equal the existence of God. Electricity would probably seem magical to someone from the 1600’s. Do we know stormlight is all that different?

Semantically, I’m still not sure if Jasnah is right or wrong on the atheist front. We know Honor & Cultivation exist. They were people who received godlike powers. Does this make them God? It all depends on your definition. Certainly Honor is worshipped as a god. Does this make Vorinism valid?

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10 years ago

I was very pleased to get again more insight in the underlying theory then we could have hoped for.
Most of the knowlegdge prior to WoR was derived by interpreting the WoK endsheet and confirming it by WoB (Word of Brandon). So what Brandon does here, is basically bring the “casual” reader to the almost same possible knowledge about the “magic-mechanics” as the hardcore fans puzzled out themselves, very well done.

@3. Re Shallan’s icon
First I was confused, that Brandon changed Shallans icon, but taking pattern as an icon prior to this would have been premature. And I like the similarity with the “color”-pattern (black for now, white for the past), same as was done in WoK for Kaladin.

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10 years ago

As a self-proclaimed atheist, however, Jasnah considers anything that can’t be explained by science to be superstition or fabrication. She holds an underlying presumption that she understands the natural world, and that anything “supernatural”—anything that isn’t part of her definition of the natural world—is therefore not real.

Jasnah’s statement of personal suspicions doesn’t sound like a presumption of understanding to me. From another point of view, Jasnah appears to be doing the best she can to make sense of the information she has. It’s very easy to balk at her ignorance here, but she is one of the few characters we see actively seeking truth and then forming her beliefs around it rather than forming beliefs and then seeking truth to reinforce them.

Similarly, I would also argue that Jasnah isn’t defining the natural world. I would venture a guess that if she were to learn of and understand Shards, she would merely wrap them into her understanding of nature, and there would be nothing left to call “supernatural”.

nageler
nageler
10 years ago

A bit off-topic to this chapter, but it was mentioned in the Spren-Spotting section: is there any evidence that one spren can bond to multiple people? If not, I would be very cautious of the idea that “all Bondsmiths are linked to the Stormfather.” From what I remember, the Bondsmiths are described as being very rare (three members?) and knowing what we know about the Dalinar/Stormfather connection, the implication would seem to be that they bond rare, one-of-a-kind spren. In which case the Nightwatcher might be a possible candidate, as well as the giant water spren mentioned in one of the WoK Interludes (Can’t remember the name-Sucicesh, or something?).

Braid_Tug
10 years ago

It’s interesting that since we currently only have one living example of each KR radiant order, that person tends to represent the whole order. I know there is a term for this, but I can’t think of it. Then the headings give us just a little more, so we have the lovely joke of Lift representing the “most refined” Edgedancers.
Like others I’m looking forward to meeting other representatives of their Orders.

I really loved the bits from Jasnah’s book. Really highlights how history can be altered and changed, even in RL.

@1, I really think you are onto something with Shallan’s reluctance to see and work with Pattern due to the childhood trauma. Chapter 7 reinforces that idea with her reluctance to “use the light.”

@13, Ways: Doesn’t it say something in WoK about how the Horneater religion is different, so Rock has always seen and believed in Sly differently than the rest of Bridge 4? Rock can see her because he sees her as the “little god” that she is. Or that’s how I’ve always believed it. I think he can see the intelligent spren.

@15, Rybal: @WeiryW, said Jasnah’s book is in the BACK 5 books (6-10). Not Book 5.

@19, Nageler: its Word of Brandon (WoB) that all the Bondsmith are bonded to the Stormfarther. So some powerful spren can bond more than one person. But I would be very surprised if a “normal” spren like Sly or Pattern bonded more than one person. That would break the mold.

Edit:
At JordonCon, Rossnewberry asked Brandon about all Bondsmiths being bonded to the Stormfather.
That question got a RAFO. (With a big smile)
But the follow-up was that a sufficiently powerful spren could be bounded to more than one person.
(again, big smile)

So my memory translated that as WoB confirmed: All Bondsmith bond to the Stormfather.
However we do not have that 100% confirmed yet. Just a strong belief.

nageler
nageler
10 years ago

@20, Braid_Tug: Good to know. Though that raises an interesting question: the KR, and thus the Bondsmiths, pre-date the death of Honor. Yet the Stormfather has always been described as the echo of Tanavast created by the beliefs of men after the death of Honor. So who/what were the Bondsmiths bonded to before? Directly to Honor?

Braid_Tug
10 years ago

@21: That I do not know.
I had not realized that the Stormfather came after the death of Honor.

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10 years ago

I didn’t think that there was Surgbinders before the Knights Radients where founded.

I can’t remember where but I believe Sly talks about how the spren saw what the Almighty did for the 10 hearlds to give them Surgebinding and then figured out a way to form the Nael bond with people as an imataion of that.

To me, that meant that the only Surgebinders before the KR where the Heralds. We don’t know if they had access to all 10 surges. We do know that their swords can bestow the two surges that are assiocated with the Heralds KR order but is it possible that the Haralds themselves could do more than just the two surges? I don’t think so because that might make the too powerful. Then again there where only 10 of them maybe that is what was needed to fight Odium and the fact that the spren could only bestow two of those surges at best is what makes the Knights Radiant “weaker”.

I wonder if Honor/the Almighty is dead because his Heralds broke their oaths to him? Kinda of like how Sly almost died because Kal almost broke his oaths…

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10 years ago

As to the origin of Surgebinding, there’s a quote from the “Words of Radiance” epigraphs that give the best information in my opinion.

But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws.
– From Words of Radiance, chapter 2, page 4

Ishar was the herald assosiated with the Bondsmiths. My idea is that originally the Surgebinders had no limits or rules. Something he did created the Oaths that all Knights Radiant had to speak to gain power. I think that there is something in the Bondsmiths’ power that allows them to set the Rules for the magic system. From a different epigraph, you learn that it is something unique to the Bondsmiths that allowed them to find a way to deal with the Voidbringers, somehow turning them into Parshmen.
————————————————–
The Stormfather may predate the death of Honor, being the spren of the highstorm. I think what it means is that people’s belief in the almighty was diverted to the Stormfather when Honor was killed as he was the most closely aligned. I’m fairly certain he was around for the Recreance. I believe he was mentioned as being the only spren to survive the severing of the nahal bond (although the process seems to have left him a little unstable). At the end of the book when he summons an unexpected Highstorm, he talks about some of this.
————————————————–
Quote from Wyndle:
“They can’t see me because I exist mostly in the Cognitive Realm … I can make myself visible to anyone, should I desire, though it’s not easy for me. Other spren are more skilled at it, while some have the opposite trouble.”
The some that have the opposite trouble seem to include the Cryptics. Later in the novel, Pattern learns to hide his presence, but has difficulty with it.

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10 years ago

About the Vorin Church according to Jasnah :

“The fabrications they promoted—and then perpetuated as absolute truth—became ingrained in the consciousness of society. More disturbingly, modified copies of ancient texts were made, aligning history to match Hierocratic dogma.”

If they made all these changes how do current researchers know that the histories are false?

And another thought:

“The ship swayed, and the glowing white spheres in her goblet clinked as they shifted.
She took a deep breath.Then looked directly at the pattern.
Immediately, it began to fade, the ridges sinking. Before it did, she got a clear look at it, and she took a Memory.”

Does she usually take a deep breath before taking a Memory? Could she always suck in a tiny bit of stormlight before taking a memory? Or it could just be the mundane, I’m about to do something tough, deep breath.

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10 years ago

@20 Braid_Tug: Yes, it seems that Horneaters worship/honor Spren, but Rock has a special connection that he is reluctant to share. I can’t remember the exact quote, but later in this book Kaladin has a discussion with Rock about this (it may be in the chapter when Kal goes drinking with the guys, maybe not). They have a discussion about the Horneater Peaks, and Sigzil mentions that it’s death for outsiders to see them when someone else (maybe Peet?) wants to. Kal then asks Rock if his dip in the pools up there (apparently where Wit/Hoid entered Roshar from Rock’s description) is related to his ability to see Syl, and Rock refuses to answer but does admit that “is related”. So Rock had some experience in the crater pools on the Horneater Peaks, where from his description there may be access to the Cognitive Realm (or even the Spiritual one????), and his interactions with Spren are not necessarily typical of all Horneaters.
@23 Kei_rin In Dalinar’s vision with Nohadon, Nohadon asks “what should we do about the Surgebinders?” Nohadon later wrote “The Way of Kings”, which supposedly outlined the Radiants’ ideals when they were founded. So Surgebinders definitely existed before the Radiants did.

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10 years ago

Huh.

Today (really all week, but *especially* today) has been hellacious, in terms of time to read, think, or write. So I’ll write more after I get home this evening.

But for now, I just want to register that I’m rather surprised by what so far seems to be the prevailing view of Jasnah – either her beliefs in general, or as expressed in this chapter. I didn’t find myself amused (like Alice and many others) or angry (like MDNY and others) at her after this chapter. I found myself having *mad respect* for her – her scholarship, her brilliance, her unflinching honesty, as well as her consideration towards Shallan. I think she’s closer to the truth than anyone else we’ve met – certainly anyone who doesn’t have specialized knowledge and access, like Hoid. She’s come closer to the nature of Honor, Cultivation, Odium, and the universe than any other Rosharan I’ve seen. (I say all this, by the way, as a theist, a minister, and a theologian. I find Jasnah *very* impressive and thoroughly admirable.) (Apart from that whole thing where she trucks with assassins, anyway.)

1. “I do not think that means what you think it means” – I don’t think Jasnah is technically an atheist. Has she called herself that, or is that a label applied by others? Here I’m mindful of the fact that early Christians were called atheists by Roman society, because they worshipped only one god. Atheism did not mean then, as it does for us now, that you don’t believe in any god; it meant that you didn’t believe in the *right* god or gods. So Christians, who were plainly theistic, were classed as ‘atheists’ because they didn’t worship all the gods or participate in the Emperor’s cult. In a society that prided itself on piety, freely accepting all the gods and folding the gods of conquered peoples into Roman worship, denying the deity of all gods but one was the height of impiety. Moreover it was unpatriotic and a direct threat to Rome, which had obviously earned heavenly favor by freely courting so many gods.

Others call Jasnah an atheist because she doesn’t believe in Vorinism…but she grants the possibility of there being a ‘real’ God, distinct from the god of Vorinism. And again, she doesn’t deny the possibility of the god of Vorinism existing…just that this being isn’t one she’s inclined to worship.

From my perspective, as not just a theist but a monotheist, she’s *right*. Honor may have been quite a nice fellow and all…but let’s face it. Honor is a person – a person just like Jasnah, except he gained specialized power and knowledge. 1/16th of the power of Creation, which is impressive and all – but *not* the fullness of Creation. He doesn’t have all its power, he didn’t create it all, he’s not all-knowing, he may be called the Almighty but he in fact demonstrably is NOT all-mighty – most noticeably in the fact that he’s busy being dead and stuff. From my perspective, she’s quite right not to accept him as God or worship him. Honor was a real entity, and quite powerful, and an ally against Odium…but not an entity worthy of worship.

2. Have we heard *anyone* from Vorinism who knew the Almighty’s rightful name of Honor? Perhaps it’s well known in scholarly circles, but I can’t recall ever seeing anyone from Vorin society call him anything but Almighty. She says here that he was one of mankind’s ‘primeval’ gods, and *became* the Almighty of Vorinism. I was impressed when I read this chapter at the breadth of Jasnah’s scholarship. She knew the Almighty’s ‘real’ name (or that derived from his Shard), also knew the name of Cultivation, *and* divined a relationship between them and Odium. I wish she’d given us some of Odium’s many names! Would they have been familiar to us? Would some have been names, not for Odium, but for superspren like those responsible for the Thrill or the Death Rattle?

She did consider Honor, Cultivation,and Odium to be false – either fabrications or superspren, ideas given life – and there she was wrong. But being able to name them and equate them as entities – that’s more than any of our other heroes, even Dalinar with his visions of Honor, can do. I *really* want her and Dalinar to compare notes soon! When she hears his visions – learns that Honor was real, is dead, and was killed by Odium – well, I hope the least that will happen is that she’ll realize Cultivation also could be real and is a potential ally. (And with accounts of Dalinar and Kaladin’s interactions with the Stormfather, perhaps she’ll decide to chase down the truth about the Nightwatcher for us, too. SOMEONE NEEDS TO DO THIS, I WANT TO KNOW ABOUT THE NIGHTWATCHER BRANDON.)

3. I also have to disagree with this characterization of Jasnah. Alice, you said:

“As a self-proclaimed atheist, however, Jasnah considers anything that can’t be explained by science to be superstition or fabrication. She holds an underlying presumption that sheunderstands the natural world, and that anything “supernatural”—anything that isn’t part of her definition of the natural world—is therefore not real.”

This…is not how Jasnah portrays herself. (And again – IS she a self-proclaimed atheist, or is that how she’s been labeled? Either way, this particular understanding of atheism is a distortion of her character.)

Jasnah directly contradicts these statements when Shallan asks her if she believes the Heralds existed:

“I don’t know,” Jasnah said. “There are many things in this world that I don’t understand. For example, there is *some* slight proof that both the Stormfather and the Almighty are real creatures – simply powerful spren, such as the Nightwatcher.”

Note that she doesn’t presume to understand the natural world; she grants that there are many things she doesn’t understand. “Anything that can’t be explained by science is superstition or fabrication” – is science even a word in Jasnah’s vocabulary? In any case, I don’t see Jasnah express this opinion – her response when she doens’t understand something is to reserve judgment and study it. That’s very different. (And, I maintain, admirable.)

Jasnah goes on to say, when Shallan asserts that being a powerful spren would mean that the Almighty was real:

“I never claimed he was not,” Jasnah said. “I merely claimed that I do not accept him as God, nor do I feel any inclination to worship him.”

This statement is right in line with one Dalinar will soon make – that the Almighty can’t have been God, since he wasn’t actually Almighty and is in actuality dead. (Meaning Dalinar is now an atheist too, from a Vorinist perspective.)

Both statements – this one from Jasnah and the one we’ll soon have from Dalinar – indicate a concept of a God that is an all-powerful creator and source of virtue. Jasnah doesn’t say whether she believes in that concept or not (while Dalinar does; I’d call him a theist, her likely an agnostic, but both heretical in Vorinist eyes). But she does say that she doesn’t accept Honor/the Almighty as fitting that criteria, and thus she isn’t inclined to worship him. As I said above, I agree with her.

At any rate, within the bounds of the Cosmere, the ultimate god is not Honor or any Shard, but Adolnasium. Which may not be THE ultimate since Adolnasium shattered; but on the other hand, one of the upcoming interludes will imply that Adolnasium shattered purposely to gain knowledge of itself, so there’s that.

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10 years ago

@26

That’s a good point that I forgot about.

I wonder if that Desolation was one of the first ones to have Surgebinders fighting on either side? (My memory is imperfect, but if I remember correctly he was talking about how one of the Surgebinders betrayed them). If it was, that would also jive with the quote that @24IamJoseph brought up where Ishi binds all these new Surgebinders to laws and oaths.

It also sounds like the founding of the KR wasn’t something that happened quickly. The rough timeline seems to be, that spren found people who embodied an aspect of the Almighty and bonded with them. Then the KR were founded as an organization of Surgebinders to come together to fight against Odium/Desolations. Then the different orders separated out and had particular Heralds as their sponsors (for lack of a better word).

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10 years ago

Excellent Chris. Thank you.

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10 years ago

Regarding the founding of the knights radiant, the prologue of WoK has a reference that they are around prior to the heralds breaking the oathpact. Something along the lines of ‘they have the radiant a, perhaps it will be enough’.

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10 years ago

chaplainchris1 @27: Jasnah explicitly refers to herself as an atheist, in WoK

“Atheism is not a disease, Your Majesty,” Jasnah said dryly. “It’s not as if I’ve caught a foot rash.”

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10 years ago

It’s a little funny that Jasnah says “we would probably name them liespren” whereas fans have been calling the cryptics truthspren. Did Brandon do that on purpose I wonder or did he already have that term picked out.

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10 years ago

@15 As someone pointed out, I said “her book in the back 5” not “Book 5”

@20 Where did you see WoB saying all Bondsmiths bonded the Stormfather? It’s not something I’ve ever seen. As far as I can tell the Stormfather came into existence after Tanavast died (my personal theory is the Stormfather is actually Tanavast’s Cognitive shadow, his ghost).

@32 The funny thing is that it was Brandon that told us to call them truthspren.

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PeregrineAce
10 years ago

@18 Lomeon – agree
@27 chaplainchris1 – **applause** I was about to get on here and say pretty much the same thing. Glad I read the comments first, as you delineated it better than I would have. Jasnah’s “definitions of science, reality and nature” are much larger than any other Rosharan character’s thus far (with the possible exception of Hoid, who has knowledge to which Jasnah is not privy).

This chapter made me more impressed with Sanderson’s character work than ever before. I read somewhere that he had specifically sought out atheists to get a better perspective on how they’re portrayed and what really drives them. I think he’s a done a credible job capturing it in this whole section and demonstrating that Jasnah deserves serious respect for her integrity and her work. Jasnah’s skepticism of common beliefs, meticulous analysis, and her willingness to admit what she doesn’t know are hallmarks of critical thinkers everywhere.

About her reluctance to hand over her book or to go too deeply into what she knows and what she suspects… most people wouldn’t be able to follow her work or would have dismissed her research as heretical, leading her to be careful to whom it is explained because she might be wasting valuable time. As much as her Uncle Dalinar, she’s aware that time is running out to figure out what’s going on. My guess would be that she’s torn: by giving Shallan her work, she might end up wasting time explaining things to Shallan but it’s possible that Shallan might give an insightful second perspective. Plus, logical thinkers in general dislike being out on a speculative limb in public; they’re aware that the consequences could be dire.

@25 – “If [the Vorin church] made all these changes how do current researchers know that the histories are false?” A researcher could know the histories are false by finding even snippets of pre-Hierocratic copies of the documents and noting what was changed. (IIRC, Jasnah’s notes in WoK supports that idea.) Or possibly finding copies that didn’t quite expunge all the right (wrong?) references. While dictatorships often wipe out massive amounts of historical documentation, fragments still survive. Not enough to piece together a more accurate history, but enough to know that the current version is altered from earlier sources and to theorize about how other documents may have been changed. Documents can also be analyzed for cultural clues: events or social customs or commodities that are not remotely coincident to the events the source is supposedly documenting, for instance, would tell you that the writer is not a primary source and might be altering the text to fit a certain story. Also, documents/stories that are too internally consistent are often telling; if everyone is telling the same story, it’s likely they discussed it beforehand and thus aren’t giving an honest first person account.

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10 years ago

Pattern find lies “delicious” and syl is pretty uncomfortable with them. I’d love to see them have a conversation some day. Can spren talk to spren in the physical realm?

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10 years ago

Chaplain @27: Excellent post.

Something struck me as odd when re-reading this chapter. Let’s take the sequence of events that led to the conversation between Shallan and Jasnah.

First, Shallan is able to take a Memory of Pattern and, by drawing him on paper, pulls him fully into the physical realm. Then, she is scared by Pattern seeming to chase her around, so she makes to go talk to Jasnah, but as she pulls open the door she finds Jasnah herself outside, also about to open the door, with Olive clearly visible in her palm.

This suggests to me that Jasnah was likely coming in to show Olive to Shallan, and perhaps discuss him with her. If so, then Olive must have had no objection to being shown Shallan and discussed.

However, once Shallan opens the door (with Pattern clearly visible?), Olive disappears, and Jasnah later tells Shallan that Olive doesn’t like being discussed as it makes him anxious.

Could Olive’s reluctance to appear have something to do with Pattern’s presence? Have we ever seen different types spren ever interacting? I find it odd that Jasnah was all ready to show Olive to Shallan, but claims only a little bit later that she can’t even talk about him to her!

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10 years ago

Jasnah’s spren is called Ivory, not Olive.

Another sign that a text has been tampered with are expressions that don’t fit linguistically or culturally into the time they are supposed to be from. If there are passages that reflect later beliefs but are supposed to be from a time before these beliefs appeared, the text obviously was written later.

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10 years ago

@36 The way I understood that scene with Ivory is that he detected “something” going on in Shallan’s cabin and convinced Jasnah she should go check. He was in her hand because they were talking on the way but he was intending to disappear before Jasnah opened the door. It just so happened that Shallan opened the door first, catching Ivory off-guard

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Max Gardner
10 years ago

Talk of the Cosmere has me wondering if I should continue with the series. I’ve not read any of Sanderson’s other work. And Sanderson seems to write about twenty books a year, so it would take me a serious amount of time to catch up if I so chose — time I just do not have. Is my own viewpoint, lacking that knowledge, narrow enough that I’m even intended to get anything from the Stormlight Archive? It isn’t until now, hearing other people discuss previous Sanderson novels, that I suspect I’m looking at Words of Radiance from the wrong angle when I should be looking behind the curtain.

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MJJC
10 years ago

@39 Max Gardner – you do not need to read Sanderson’s other works to enjoy the Stormlight Archive. If you have, and are into the whole Cosmere, it does add another layer to the story. SA has more Cosmere references than most of Sanderson’s works, however, not having that knowledge won’t impact your ability to follow the story. If anything, reading the re-reads and comments would require more knowledge of the Cosmere than the actual books themselves.

If you don’t have the time to enjoy Sanderson’s other works, it won’t make a difference to your ability to enjoy the SA books. If you find the time, they are worth checking out, and looking for the connections to the Cosmere as a whole can be fun (I seldom find those references on the first read through as i’m just focused on the story at hand, not the broader Cosmere universe).

Don’t let the thought of the story happening as part of a bigger universe discourage you from sticking with the story, I believe you would be doing yourself a disservice if you did.

Michael

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10 years ago

@39 MaxGardner- I’ll echo what MJJC said @40. I’ve read most of Sanderson’s works, starting with Mistborn (which I highly recommend). You can read SA without having read his other works, but there are some things that you wouldn’t catch. Much of it is minor- like those guys during the purelake interlude, “Blunt, Grump, and the Thinker”, but in this book some of it becomes pretty central (the ardent Zahel and the sword that Szeth gets in the end, for example).

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10 years ago

@37 Duh!

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10 years ago

Max Gardner @39 – It is true that many posters on this re-read have read Brandon’s other Cosmere books. However, I am one of the few who have not read any of his other works. Yet, it has not lessened my enjoyment of SA. I do not believe that my lack of reading the other Cosmere books has affected my understanding of the series’ overall plot. The only thing you may miss are minor (and IMO), to this point in the series, insignificant “breadcrumbs” (for example, see MDNY @41).

By following this re-read and occassionally checking out some Cosmere related sites (e.g. Coppermind wiki; 17th shard), I am able to understand the Cosmere referrences posters talk about. If I want further clarification, I post a question. Almost always, somebody is able to answer the question.

As others can attest, my decision to not read Brandon’s other Cosmere books does not limit me posting my musings.

(As to the qualityy of my posts, I am sure some would argue that even if I could telepathically read Brandon’s thoughts it would not help the quality of my posts).

In sum, if you have the time and desire, I am sure you will enjoy Brandon’s other Cosmere works. But if you want to only stick to the SA, then you can enjoy the seried.

Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
(Aka the musespren)
Sent from my smartphone; please excuse any typos

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10 years ago

@19-24
It’s canon (WoK) that Surgebinders existed before the KRs were founded, and this was before the end of the Desolations. Spren were trying to imitate what Honor/Tanavast had given the Heralds (as mentioned by kei_rin). Tanavast–still quite alive at the time–was surprised because he had not taught this thing to his Heralds. Ishar’elin organized the Surgebinders into the KRs and insisted on behavior rules for them (as cited @24)–still well before the end of the Desolations. We also know that 3 Bondsmiths existed just before the Recreance. I don’t believe we know if that’s the case during the Desolations; and we don’t know exactly when Tanavast was killed by Odium/Rayse, but it was after the Oathpact was broken (WoB). Assuming there were 3 Bondsmiths during the Desolations, then the question of what Spren they bonded is excellent. Braid_Tug cites WoB that all Bondsmiths are bonded to Stormfather. If that was also the situation before the end of the Desolations, then we have to conclude that Stormfather existed before Tanavast was killed (and Honor splintered). Speculation that there are 3 Godspren (Stormfather, Nightwatcher and Cusicesh), one for each of 3 Shards on Roshar (who is the 3rd?), and that each Bondsmith is bonded to 1 of them, seems suspect.

Chris @27
Nicely done! It has been suggested (Coppermind, Odium) that Odium himself is responsible for the Thrill.

Misc.
Thanks to all who commented on Rock’s ability to see Syl, and a spren’s ability to remain unseen by typical Rosharans.

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10 years ago

@11 Visibility of Pattern
Remembering Interlude 8 in WoK where spren stopped changing their size after their measurements had been written down, I wonder how much flexibility Pattern has after being drawn by Shallan. Is it the ink from Shallan’s drawing which can’t be turned invisible? Was the paper blank after Pattern left it?

ChocolateRob
10 years ago

@39 (and other Cosmere light readers) Despite how quickly Brandon writes new books there are not really that many cosmere novels available so far. –

Elantris – The Emperor’s Soul
The Mistborn trilogy – Alloy of Law
Warbreaker
The Stormlight Archive
and a few assoted short stories.

As you’re here because you’re reading the Stormlight books I’d say the only books relevent to understanding it are the original Mistborn trilogy and Warbreaker.
Elantris, Alloy of Law and the short stories are pretty much all self-contained, and while the Emperor’s soul has a good explanation of the cognative Realm the Stormlight series is good at building its own explanations.

Mistborn will help you to better understand the nature of the cosmere gods/shards and Warbreaker will tell you where the strange black Shardblade comes from at the end of WoR. Warbreaker also has Hoid more prominantly than any of the others (though only just).

Brandon has plans to expand all of his Cosmere stories and he has written quite a few non-Cosmere stories but as of now there is not much catching up to do. It is only when you add on all the non-Cosmere books that Brandon’s reading list really becomes daunting.

As others have mentioned none of the other Cosmere books are essential to understanding the Stormlight Archive, it is more likely the Stormlight books will be more helpful to understand the other Cosmere novels.

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10 years ago

@24 Joseph

Ishar was the herald assosiated with the Bondsmiths.”

We had a lengthy discussion in the spoiler thread, and I agree it is a well-reasoned deduction, and the most likely, but as of yet it isn’t the fact you imply it to be (if I didn’t miss another Word of Branderson, like “all Bondsmiths being bonded to the same spren” BraidTug @20 gave us)

As far as I know there are 4 Radiant order and associated Herald, we cannot yet be 100% sure of, despite hints pointing to the pairing I give here: Dustbringer – Chana / Truthwatcher – Pailiah /
Willshapers – Kalak / Bondsmith-Ishar

@27 Chris: I second agree with several commenters above about your excellent post. Thanks.

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10 years ago

I have a question that I haven’t found the answer to in either of the books, or I didn’t comprehend it when I read it, or have just forgotten. Do the KR, die, or can they be killed? and is that a breaking of their vows if they die?
My thoughts are they can be killed, or die, and it does not break any vows made to their spren. The spren is released at the death of KR, to return to the cognitive Realm , or find a new KR.
I like and agree with what most posts are saying, I am not following the Cosmere thing really, and at times feel there is too much of posts about that, and should be posted elsewhere as this is a reading of WOR not the Cosmere. Sorry if that chokes a few peeps up. I do skip most post that talk only of the Cosmere.
Enjoying all the rest.

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10 years ago

I need to apologise, my above comments were out of line ,sorry to all those that had comments about the Cosmere.
I should have read the prologue first.

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Shard_Rookie
10 years ago

According to Brandon:

Q : After a spren has been bonded, what happens if the person it’s bonded with dies?

A[/b]: It is an emotional event for the spren, but not a damaging one. As long as their oaths are unbroken.

So what you surmise above (knight can die and the death is not a breaking of the vows) is accurate although this obviously does not say what happens to them after the knight dies. I don’t know of any other statements regarding the latter point.

Statement can be found here about 1/2 down the page.

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7058-words-of-radiance-tour-chicago-signing-mar-22/page-2?hl=%2Bspren+%2Bdies#entry116818

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Shard_Rookie
10 years ago

Oops. Forgot to say my response @51 is directed towards @49

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10 years ago

@48

I think that the link between the four remaining heralds and their respective orders of the Knights Radiant are quite a bit more than speculative. Look here: comment image

This is a labeled diagram from the endsheet from WoK. The heralds are always the one that correspond with the insignia for their order of the KR, and that’s WoB.

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harveysbc
10 years ago

“We also catch another glimpse of Ivory, which is the most ironic name for a spren who looks like a “small figure made of inky blackness—shaped like a man in a smart, fashionable suit with a long coat” who then melts away into shadow. I’m sure the naming was done on purpose; I still wonder what the purpose is!”

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Shadesmar was kind of like a photographic negative, where something that is black in the physical realm would be white or ivory-colored there. That’s how I understood the spren’s name at least…

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Max Gardner
10 years ago

Thanks for the advice, all. It was the first bit of the review that had me worrying whether I was reading it from the proper perspective or not. I’m one of those people who finds Jasnah quite admirable and brave in her scholarly pursuits (and sort of annoyed at her death early in Words of Radiance, though the circumstances surrounding that — the vanishing corpse and the convenient resurfacing of the chest of books — are odd enough that it makes me think not all is as it seems), but if we’re meant to think her laughably small-minded and arrogant (chuckle-worthy?) due to her ignorance of the larger Cosmere, then I felt I might not be interpreting other characters correctly either.

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Underbelly
10 years ago

Jasnah’s failure in misinterpreting the world around her is an example of a twist on one of my favorite literary devices: the unreliable narrator. As those in the ‘know’ (AKA the Cosmere Club), we can recognize that her arguments regarding Cultivation’s and Honor’s origins are false but the logical progression she takes to get there is pretty impressive. In fact, (much as @27 said) she even hits closer to home than anyone else. She is unreliable not because of malice, magic, madness, or deceit (as are often the cases when the ‘unreliable narrator’ is used in fantasy) but rather just because she is making a logical deduction based on incomplete information. It might not be as flashy as some of the other uses but what I love about it is that we are reminded that this is a complex and diverse world where brilliant people are wrong, strong people have weaknesses, and proud people are brought low. The authenticity of it breathes life into the world and these characters.

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10 years ago

@56

I tend to agree with you. Reading the chapter, you kind of have an inside chuckle about the things that Jasnah is saying that are incorrect, but the fact that she got so much RIGHT is astounding. Working off of incomplete information, she concluded that Honor and Cultivation aren’t worth worshiping, but that they might exist, and if so they’re probably something like large intelligent spren.

And to be perfectly honest, that’s a decent way to think of a shard.

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10 years ago

Max Gardner @55. Interesting. I always thought that trunk washing up on shore near Shallan was coincidence. I never thought that Jasnah could have influenced the appearance of the trunk. If she did, I would very much like to learn how.

When I first read her “death” scene, I was somewhat suspicious. My first clue was when she talked about the door not latching properly. I thought that given that, she may have a contingency plan. What that was, I did not know.

Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB

Braid_Tug
10 years ago

@58 & 55:
And here I thought the chest washing up near Shallan was just pure “The aurthor wanted it to happen.” :-)

And could Ross, Jay or Ways or someone who was at JordanCon 6 help me out. I thought we learned WoB that the Stormfather bonded all Bondsmith there. But I can’t find my notes or the video of his Sunday reading.

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Max Gardner
10 years ago

@58 and 60: I’m only a few hundred pages in, so I don’t know what will come of this theory. The things that stood out for me were that 1) Jasnah’s body was gone when Shallan returned to the room, 2) Jasnah’s trunk of books was also gone when Shallan returned, 3) the trunk of books washes up on shore close to Shallan, and 4) Jasnah can soulcast. Who’s to say she couldn’t soulcast a simulacrum of her own sleeping body for the assassins to stab?

@59: That wasn’t what was going through my mind either, but the review more or less said as much, so I wondered if that was, in fact, how I was supposed to be seeing her, having incomplete knowledge of Sanderson’s books myself.

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10 years ago

Wetlandernw @@@@@ 62. What do you mean that spren are not in the real world? Is it really true that spren are a construct of an author? My graduate thesis (the existence of spren in our lives) is ruined. I have wasted the last two years of my life. How will I be able to defend my thesis? :)

Thanks for reading my (made up) musings
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)
Sent from my smartphone; please excuse any typos

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Shard_Rookie
10 years ago

Wetlandernw@62 What are “RL friends?”

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10 years ago

Ivory is dark in Shadesmar and the real world:

Real world:

One took the shape of a man of midnight blackness, though he had a certain reflective cast, as if he were made of oil. No… of some other liquid with a coating of oil floating on the outside, giving him a dark, prismatic quality.

Shadesmar:

She was left with the sight of the dark, lustrous figure, hovering in the air above, seeming satisfied as he resheathed his sword.
[…]
Ahead of her, the dark figure stepped up onto the platform.
[…]
She met the oil figure’s gaze.

WoR Prologue

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Shard_Rookie
10 years ago

Wow! Found this through the 17th shard: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/13089-fantasycon-reading/page-2

It is a reading from Chapter 1 of book3!

http://shallandavar-.tumblr.com/post/91074977651/part-1-brandon-sanderson-reading-chapter-1-of

http://shallandavar-.tumblr.com/post/91074970316/part-2-brandon-sanderson-reading-chapter-1-of

Like most of these readings it only leaves me wanting so much more! But at least we know he started book 3.

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10 years ago

Braid_Tug @60: My attempt to get Brandon to confirm the Stormfather as being bonded to all Bondsmiths was kind of RAFO’d. We did get him to confirm that a sufficiently powerful spren could be bonded to more than one person, but he stopped short of saying that the Stormfather was multi-bonded.

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10 years ago

@67 Wow, that’s a great find!

White-out text for those that don’t want to read/listen to the chapter yet:

I’m fairly certain that the reason that Kaladin’s eyes aren’t permanently changed is the same reason his slave brands aren’t healing. His cognitive identity does not accept light eyes, since he hates what they represent. With Kaladin, we have a very visual representation of his sense of self–we’ll know that he’s accepted what he is when he looks the part.

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10 years ago

Thanks Shard Rookie,

But now I have to go home and change. :)

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10 years ago

If Shallon was already bonding to Pattern at a young age why did she have many cryptics following her around the palanaeum?

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10 years ago

I ended up doing a transcription of the reading who can’t watch the video here, in case people are interested.

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10 years ago

Bellaberry @71: The way I see it, spren view conscious access to the Physical realm as being just as useful and novel as humans view Surgebinding. When Shallan withdrew from the bond due to her multiple psychological traumas, Pattern was left searching for a way to get back what he’d lost. I assume that he and the other Cryptics that showed up in Shallan’s drawings were researching her in the Cognitive realm in an attempt to reconnect.

Braid_Tug
10 years ago

@68, Ross: Darn. Thought it was confirmed.

@67: did you see that the info is now on Tor.com homepage? I think you gave them an idea. Based on the time stamps. :-)
Thinking we can take the spoiler talk there.

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10 years ago

@69

I think it’s just due to the incomplete bond with Syl. Each order of the KR had eyes related to their order’s representative color (see the table), and it’s likely that wasn’t just the case when they held Stormlight – unless, of course, they always had some Stormlight, which effectively amounts to the same thing in the end.

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10 years ago

@75

Wait- where does it say that eye color for the raidents corresponds to the order that they are in? I don’t remember reading anything about that?

I thought that Kaladin’s eyes were just a very dark blue and when he holds stormlight they glow to look light blue. I don’t remember the eye color for the other possible knights. (Can you tell Kal’s my favorite?)

I don’t know if we can use Moash as an example because he “bonds” to a dead spren but his eyes just go from dark brown to a light brown. But if his dead bond is anything to go by (and I admit it might not be) wouldn’t that suggest eye color, beyond lightening or darkening, doesn’t have to do with KR order but just the fact that there is bond?

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10 years ago

@76

A lot of people assume that your eyes change color to the order you’re in, and that’s mainly because Szeth’s eyes changed from one color (dark green, I believe) to a pale blue, ostensibly because he was using the Windrunner power set.

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10 years ago

Ah, I see. I missed that when reading. Thank you.

I wonder if that a particular thing of using an Honorblade or if it is as others thing and that eye color depends on which order you are in?

Personal I hope it’s just a thing having to do with Honorblades because otherwise it’s just too neatly packaged for my taste. But I’ll accept it either way.

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10 years ago

@76

Kaladin’s “dark” eyes have always been described as brown, Syl even mentions it in the new reading, not a dark blue.

As for the Radiant eye color thing we have this WoB:

Q: Will a Surgebinder’s eye color change when they Surgebind or have a
Blade. Is the color of their eyes corresponding to their Order? So
Windrunners would do blue.

A: Yes.

Q: So each Order does a different eye color?

A: Each Order does indeed have an eye color representation.

(source)

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10 years ago

@79

Huh- okay then. I remeber reading the part where Kal’s eyes are described as bule in WoR and thought that I must have read something wrong before but I guess I didn’t. That makes me feel a bit better about my memory then.

Thanks for the link.

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10 years ago

travyl @48
I agree with TKOCF @53. The Herald-KR order associations are known with certainty now. Coppermind presents them as canon. Also, there is a 17th Shard thread where Peter confirmed several specific associations. Unfortuately, I can’t find that one again to give you a link.

Braid @60 and 74
What Ross said. And here’s the only other substance I could find (cited not, but given as WoB):
Q: Before the Recreance, there were three Bondsmiths. Did they all bond superspren, or is Dalinar an exception?
A: They did something similar.
Similar? Really? That nails it down.

Does anyone (besides me) believe Hoid’s end-game is to de-splinter Honor to help overcome Odium? There’s a theory out there that he is trying to reassemble Adonalsium, but, IIRC, there’s WoB that it can’t be done.

Has anyone else wondered if Lightweavers can make themselves invisible? That would be awesomeazing.

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Shard_Rookie
10 years ago

@81 Ways Has anyone else wondered if Lightweavers can make themselves invisible? That would be awesomeazing.

Yes! I pictured Shallan looking into a mirror and then drawing what she sees without her in the scene! She might have to move around to draw exactly what was behind her (or take a memory) but I think it is doable.

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10 years ago

@81
I’m fairly certain that the “they did something similar” response by Brandon here is the reason that some people assume that what they did was that they bonded Honor directly somehow. Which I’m not sure I agree with, but still.

+@82
Here’s the issue with making yourself invisible–in order to do so, you have to make it so that no light is hitting you, which would effectively blind you.

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10 years ago

Shallan once hides in an illusion of a wall. Maybe she could hide in an illusion of air, too, to become invisible.

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10 years ago

81. Ways
I have come to the same conclusion that Hoid must be trying to reassemble Adonalsium, or something very much like it. But without a clear idea of what Adonalsium is, that is a bit obscure. Recreating it exactly may be neither possible or really necessary. Sometimes it is best to start from scratch when building.

Does anyone else know what Brandon has said on the matter?

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STBLST
10 years ago

Judging only from the Stormlight books issued thus far, I would say that Hoid aims at combatting and even neutralizing Odium through the encouragement of proto-Radiants. That is the implication of those letters in the epigraphs (assuming that Hoid is the writer), and the fact that Hoid interacts with and encourages both Shallan and Kaladin at important points of their lives. He has also interacted with Rock at a Horneater peak shardpool when he first entered into Roshar, and, of course, with his student, Sigzil. Both are now able to see Syl, which indicates to me that they will develop into Radiants or Squires.

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10 years ago

Regarding Hoid, it has been implied or stated WOB that he has gathered shards from several worlds already (Atium and Lerasium from Scadrial, Tears of Egli on Nalthis, and now he’s on Roshar where there are at least 2 shards as well), but there is no word to my knowledge on his endgame. It’s one of the big mysteries of the Cosmere, not just the SA.

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Jasuni
10 years ago

@83 turning invisible actually requires that no light reflects off of you. having no light hit you would ensure this (and blind you), but if some light is entering the eyes without any noticable amount reflecting off, you could remain invisble while maintaining the ability to see.

Lightweavers are better off becoming something that fits in the environment (like the ones mentioned @84 or a rock) then becoming completely invisible (although being completely transparent would have the same effect as turning completely invisble)

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10 years ago

I agree there are numerous ways one could turn “invisible.” There are surely work-arounds for the problem of not being able to see if one was truly invisible.

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10 years ago

@53 / 81: Thanks for the charts. And yes, I do accept the cannon. It’s just, that when I tried to “figure out” the endsheet myself, based solely upon clues from the book, I didn’t manage to place the ones I mentioned above.
** I accept that Ishar is the Ishar of the Radiant order using Tension/Adhesion (likewise with the other three), but naming the order Bondsmith (…) is where I’m lacking the clues, to be sure.

(Moderators, I accidentaly flagged a post, there’s nothing wrong with it)

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6 years ago

@62 There are more things in heaven and earth then are dreamt of in your philosophy